Re: no examiners at cumbernauld

Stephen · Good Guy Joined: Jul 26, 2003 Posts: 150 Location: Falkirk

The SAA examiners are there to help you,
It is not their job,they do not have to do it. They have progressed through the training scheme, have passed their certificates and after that I guess they felt they wanted to help others.

Maybe one day you could consider becoming an examiner and helping others to reach a higher standard of flying.

An examiners role is the standard we should all be aiming to acheive and is something to aspire to (in my opinion)

As said , if you desperately require a bronze , silver or gold test , I have no doubt it could be arranged for you within hours.

The testing carried out at the falkirk flyin did not stop the other flying in any way,

Hope to see you there next year.
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Stephen

sportsjet · Junior Member Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 11

Quote from rapterheli2 – “this is not what you have said before on this forum atleast. before you where questioning their commitment and infact it was time for new instructors.” It seems there was a lack of communication and commitment to this SAA Training weekend. Was it from the pilots, the examiners or the organisers, well you can make your own mind up on that one. I do still think we should have more SAA helicopter examiners, so the workload can be spread around a little more. I’m sure the current examiners will agree with that.

Quote from rapterheli2 – “may i put it to you.” No sorry rapterheli2, you may not!!!!

Quote from rapterheli2 – “if your silver is important, which i assume it is that you go through the proper channels the rest of us have to and contact the SAA to do so.” It is not very important to me. It would be nice to have so I can fly a Large Scale helicopter or the turbine helicopter at some of the public events here in Scotland. (Promote the hobby and all that) Not interested in the 3D nonsense, it doesn’t impress me and most of the public haven’t got a clue what the pilot is doing anyway.

Quote from rapterheli2 – “i thought you would have came to falkirk and took your silver though. or where you otherwise busy, the same as the examiners where the week of cumbernauld? it does happen unfortunetely.” No I wasn’t busy. I would have come along but had a problem with my helicopter on Saturday while practising for the Silver. Unfortunately, could not get it fixed in time for Sunday. So it was problems with equipment rather than problems with commitment. I did go to Cumbernauld on Sunday, which was nice and quiet. Perfect conditions so I helped a friend set up his helicopter and fix a few problems with it. So it was a good day all round!

Quote from Steven – “Maybe one day you could consider becoming an examiner and helping others to reach a higher standard of flying.” That would be an interesting thought but no thanks. These examiners reach a level of flying helicopters that only a few reach.

TC

raptorheli2 · Junior Member Joined: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 11

sportsjet · Junior Member Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 11

RaptorHeli2 - Quote - " i have tried to help you " I do not want your help. I have not asked for it. I am not that bothered about the Silver, it means very little to me. I do not need Safety awards to make me a better flyer, or a safer flyer. Most of that is from Common Sense and consistent practice.

Without the helicopter silver, what does this stop me doing? Not very much. Just stops me flying helis at public shows. So what! Not a big deal. I can still fly my jets at these shows and have more fun with them.

If I was desperate to do public shows, I could just as easy do the BMFA "B" safety award for the helicopters, as I am a BMFA member also and fly regularly in England. Also I would rather wait until a training event to do the tests rather than call out an examiner just for my benefit.

I find that the BMFA certificates and insurance is far better recognised at European model shows. Go along with your SAA Silver and watch the looks from the organisers. What is this? Who is the SAA?

You are right, there is only a small number of helicopter flyers in Scotland compared to fixed wing flyers. This small group would be better looking after themselves rather than have the SAA involved in organising events. Regular fun fly ins with regular training weekends (1 per month) throughout the Summer would bring on trainee pilots and promote our hobby.

Then we might see more Chinooks, Scale helicopters and turbine helicopters at these meetings. Far more entertaining in my view, than the crazy 3D flying stuff.

TC

QM · Member Joined: Feb 09, 2004 Posts: 50

Having watched the Scottish Nationals and the British Nationals this year, I agree that there is definitely a lack of scale helicopters...in fact none were being flown as there are no classes for them. I enjoy watching well presented airshows, seeing the scale models fly and also enjoy watching the 3D fixed wing and helicopters fly.

It is true that fixed wing aeromodellers on the whole aren't bothered with pod and boom helis (unless they fly them as well), but I wonder how they would feel if they saw proper scale helicopters appearing more? I was at the Scottish Heli Nats earlier this year and there were a couple of stunning examples of scale helis...as well as some brilliant demonstrations of 3D flying, everything has its place.

I am surprised to hear the comment about the SAA not being recognised in Europe, as Alex Kennedy (SAA Committee member) has been busy this year travelling with the Scottish team, Worldwide, and has not mentioned this, I shall have to enquire with him about it.

As a general note about displays, a Silver or BMFA B, is the starting block for being able to fly at a public event. You then have to prove to the event organiser that you can fly properly in front of a crowd! After all having lots of people watching you is quite different to having two examiners peering over your shoulder.
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Quentin Mayberry

raptorheli2 · Junior Member Joined: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 11

Sav · Junior Member Joined: Aug 30, 2004 Posts: 14

Sportsjet.

The 3D masters seemed to know and accept the insurance there alright. Same as every other heli event i have been to down south.

I don't see how your comment holds any weight concerning foreign knowledge of the SAA.

If the silver wasn't important to you , why complain about it?

Stu

sportsjet · Junior Member Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 11

Stuart, getting my Silver is never the important point here! This whole issue is all about the SAA Training weekend at CMFC being A FLOP. The CMF club handed over their field in good faith for fixed wing and helicopter training/ testing. Much good could have come out of this weekend if it had been supported by more pilots/ examiners and had a more structured approach to the training/ testing. My Silver is not the issue here; I was more interested in the training aspect than sitting my Silver test. It is active training that makes safer pilots! I was only one of several model flyers who attended this training weekend, but got no benefit out of it.

Also as a CMFC member, I disagree with handing over our club's private field for activities, which are poorly organised/run/supported. These weekend activities put restrictions on our current members using our own flying field. So why should we (the club members) be happy to hand over our field again for a helicopter meeting or a Scale meeting or a training weekend? Why would we want to give up our field for any other event? We can run our own club events very successfully and have a fantastic turn out from our own club members and guests.

The SAA Silver/ Insurance for European events - You may be ok handing in your SAA insurance card at "English" 3D masters events but I would not go to a European shows/event without my BMFA Card and insurance certificate. I might not get much flying,if I don't have it. Try it Stuart, see how far you get trying to fly at a European event with the SAA card. I've experienced it first hand so there is plenty weight behind my comments!

Quote from QM - "You then have to prove to the event organiser that you can fly properly in front of a crowd!" IT NEVER HAPPENS AT SHOWS! Pilots of all abilities/ experience/ training, fly at these shows with a Silver. Look at the last entry to the SAA Air show. Personally I do not think the SAA Silver/ BMFA B is good enough level of experience for pilots to fly at public shows. I think it is wrong that a pilot can pass his Silver with his Wot4, then go to the next public model air show with his high-speed aerobatic model to fly. Display flying skills comes from flying experience with the model and specific training, which the SAA Silver does not provide. I think the LMA have gone in the right direction. They expect pilots to perform six-display flight in front of LMA examiners with their display model before allowing them to fly at a public show. Its about time the SAA/ BMFA followed the LMA here. Currently the Silver is a passport to fly any model under 20kgs at public shows - the main reason why most people taking the Silver test! - Not for safety.

TC

sportsjet · Junior Member Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 11

Maybe you should all have a look at the following before you continue to have pot shots at me.

http://www.rcmodelflyers.co.uk/4um/index.php?topic=11054.0

There was plenty more people unhappy with the training weekend in the fixed wing community.

TC

QM · Member Joined: Feb 09, 2004 Posts: 50

Sportsjet, the quote made about demonstrating that you can fly before flying in front of the public does happen! It happens at the SAA airshow on the Friday night, and at the BMFA Airshow at Barkston Heath. I have also been informed by other competitors that they have to fly before the event as well.

I couldn't agree with you more about the silver not being good enough for an airshow qualification, it is virtually at the top of the safety committee agenda and I am in communication about it with the BMFA. A BMFA and SAA display pilot log book exists and is encouraged to be used, but not mandatory yet. The full size display pilot has to have a special display licence and is checked by the CAA, I think we should be doing the same in the model world too. By the way, the LMA flights tests, only apply to models over 20kgs, members of the LMA with a model under that weight just get one flight check. This is another loop hole that has come to light recently and is being addressed.

On another subject I think the poor organisation thing at Cumbernauld has been flogged to death now on both forums. As a result I have put up notes on the SAA website forum so hopefully clubs now know what to do when organising events. This information will be sent to all SAA club secretary's so the ones not on the web will also be advised.
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Quentin Mayberry

sportsjet · Junior Member Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 11

QM, I agree that the CMFC training day has been flogged to death now. I am very pleased that these discussions on both Forums have cleared the air and hopefully we will see an improved system for taking the safety training and testing.

I have been particularly impressed by the positive comments QM has put on this and the other Forums. It is a refreshing breath of fresh air that one of the SAA officials stands up and becomes accountable for their actions. If only it had happened in years past, then the SAA may well have better credibility. If only we had more people like QM on the committee, then we may have an SAA that we could be proud of again.

Demonstration flights - I am very please that the BMFA are checking out pilots ability before shows. But this may have been just a check flight where the pilot simply does a few ccts to allow him to fly at the public show the following day. This normally happens to pilots who are unknown and new to the public shows, rather than known pilots turning up with unknown models. I certainly did not get asked to do any check flights when I turned on to the SAA model show on the Saturday morning with two new models. Both had flown before but not at public shows.

I think the important point that is missing here is that pilots should demonstrate their full display several times to an examiner to be checked out to fly that specific model at a public show. The display should be clearly documented with the manoeuvres, flight duration, number of times flown and safety points if it all goes wrong. The pilot should also demonstrate a flameout or engine out condition/ landing. Then the pilot must stay current with the model to allow him to fly at shows. This would clear out some of the dead wood from the shows and allow the rising stars more chances to develop their display flying.

I know pilots who fly their model at 300ft and 1/2 mile out at shows. Then throws in the occasional roll on a high level pass. They have their throttle set at one position throughout the flight. This is not a display!

I know pilots who turns up at a show with their model, which has not been flown for a year or so and try putting on a display. It’s clearly rubbish.

I know pilots who fly at shows with new models which are well outside their ability. This is dangerous.

I know pilots who simply fly around in circles for 10 minutes with the most entertaining point of their display being the landing. Normally the spectators get something between a crash and a normal landing.

The BMFA and SAA display pilot logbook has been a little bit of a damp squid. I have never seen anybody use it or been signed up as competent to do a particular display with a particular model.

If there ever is to be another Scottish Airshow then the officials must check out all models/ pilots/ displays several weeks before the show. Friday night is too small a window to checkout displays. And most people don't turn up to fly on a Friday evening anyway.

And display pilot training weekends would be good so we can find out what level the pilots need to reach before doing public shows.

TC